Category: Interview

Chief Timipre Sylva, former governor of Bayelsa State, Chieftain of All Progressive Congress, (APC) and Co-Chairman of the Presidential Inauguration Committee for the May 29 Handover occasion said the corruption charges filed against him by the EFCC is vindictive and aimed at smearing his image. Sylva DAILY TIMES that there was no shred of evidence against him on the charges declaring that he will be vindicated at the end. He added that Nigerians are lucky to have Gen Muhammadu Buhari as President describing him as a patriotic. The former governor also talked about his experience with President Goodluck Jonathan labeling it as ‘a sad chapter of his life.’ Excerpts:

Before now, many thought that your political career was over considering the incidents that played out in 2011/2012, but today you seem to have bounced back even better with your party winning the general elections. What has been your source of inspiration and strategy?

You can see that they were mistaken, those who thought that I have come to the end of my political career. They didn’t factor God in at all, that was the only mistake they made. But on my own what I did was that, everything I went through, I realized that I had to re-strategized and reinvent myself so that I can come out again. I felt that my political career was still very much underway; and I saw that there was no opportunity of growth in the PDP anymore because of the impunity and lack of commitment to the rule of law that was pervading the PDP, so I decided that I have to find another platform, and I found APC. I found a kindred spirit in the APC and my political career of course has kicked start more or less with the victory of President Buhari.

You’ve single handedly led and represented the APC in Bayelsa State to this historic national victory at the polls irrespective of the fact that the incumbent president is from your place, what were the challenges you faced during the electioneering processes?

There were a lot of challenges because nobody in Bayelsa or not many people thought we were doing the right thing. In Niger Delta, a lot of people were against us, writing all kinds of things about us and saying all kinds of things about me that I am enemy number one in the Niger Delta and of the Ijaw people. But I was very clear because I realized that President Jonathan wasn’t taking us to the right destination and as Niger Delta, we have not benefited much from his presidency and we needed something new and I kept saying that you cannot hinge the destiny of the whole Ijaw people on the destiny of one man. Whether we like it or not one day President Jonathan’s tenure will end how then will we continue in this country? That was the question I asked many times and today, I have been vindicated.

Soon after your party won the presidential election, you happened to be the first person ever to be appointed by the President-elect Gen Muhammadu Buhari to chair his Transition Committee, along the line you reneged the appointment many are wondering what happened?

No, I am still a functioning Chairman; I am the co-chairman, Inauguration Committee. The inauguration committee is different from the transition committee. The Transition Committee is the committee that is taking over the Handover Notes from the outgoing government; while we, are planning the inauguration to making sure that we have a proper inauguration. So they are two different committees and I am functioning quite perfectly. The only thing is that it is not a committee that is in the public glare. We are just quietly planning and carrying-on. Maybe soon, you will get your invitation.

Chief, you are facing a 42-count charge by the EFCC over an alleged embezzlement of N19.2 billion while in office, how would you describe this allegation?

In fact, it is a very strange allegation and it is very sad that people would do everything to try to tarnish the image of somebody. The unfortunate thing with Nigerians is that, they are quick to accepting falsehood, because they are very gullible. As soon as they hear that you have a count-charge, the Nigerian public would almost convict you before the court would. If not, frankly speaking, we shouldn’t be discussing this matter at all because there is no shred of truth in what they are talking about.

If you look at it, first they instituted a charge of N2 billon embezzlement against me and two others; along the line they discharged the two others leaving only me. It tells you very clearly that they are just after me. For example, my Commissioners for Finance, my Accountant General were discharged from the matter, leaving only me because it was only me they are after. And if you know how government works you will know that a governor cannot have access to a treasury of a state without the Accountant General or the commissioner for finance. How come in this case, I am the only one being charged? Now, when they found out that, that charge could not go anywhere, they tried all forms of tricks because the EFCC to be fair, (from what I heard) were under a lot of pressure from the (Presidential) Villa. Of course, they tried again, and they say look, why haven’t you found a way of getting this man jailed. And of course, they went to work again, at some point the EFCC went to town to say I owned all the houses in Abuja. Every house in Abuja was owned by me. It was such an unfortunate situation. They went to my friends’ houses and said I owned even those houses. And of course, when they went to court all my friends went to court to challenge them that those houses don’t belong to him and had to prove it and the court discharged that matter. That was a very embarrassing situation. You can imagine the extent they have gone in search of evidence to prosecute me. The truth is that there is no shred of evidence in that matter and I believe that when justice finally takes it course I will be vindicated just as I have been vindicated politically.

Talking about public opinion sir, some persons have it that this issue is as a result of your fallout with the outgoing president, how true is that?

Well, I am sure it’s not too far away from that; I don’t really like to dwell on it because so many things happened between myself and the outgoing First-family, I don’t want to discuss too much on this question because I don’t want to go into all that happened between myself and the First family but I can only round it off by saying that it was a relationship that I’ll rather put behind me because it was not a pleasant one at all! It was a very unpleasant relationship that I had with the outgoing president (Goodluck Jonathan) and his wife. It is a very sad chapter of my life and I am only willing to close it, I’m not ready to open it again.

You have governed Bayelsa state as governor for five years, what can you tell Nigerians was your success story?

It was a very great opportunity for me and I think I used it maximally. When I was going into Bayelsa, there was only one issue in my mind at that time, I think it was also the paramount issue about Bayelsa in the minds of most Nigerians and that issue was insecurity. The militancy was at its peak when I became governor of Bayelsa; five years down the line when I was leaving Bayelsa you would agree with me that there was no more militancy in the state and that was due to strategy and what we did as a government, and I take credit for it with all sense of modesty. For me, that was my most important aspiration and I achieved it as governor; apart from that the rest of course, were routine things that any government should achieve like building internal roads, building schools, building health centres and all those things that we did. Frankly, as far as I’m concerned, a government should not pride itself of doing any of those things because they are just being a matter of facts. And we were able to impact on Bayelsans that is why I am very happy today because I am one of the most accepted past governors in Bayelsa. If I go to Bayelsa today, I feel very happy that the people appreciate what I did.

Do you have any intention to contest the governorship election come 2016? If yes, and if given the opportunity again what wrong would you want to correct?

Let me just say this, I am very conscious of the fact that I have one more tenure in Bayelsa, but whether I will run, I have not decided I must tell you because a few things are still fresh in my mind and also there are few opportunities for service that I have seen around the country that I believe are just as good as serving Bayelsa State. But if I do decide to go back to Bayelsa State, I will not be going on a clean slate because I have already done quite a bid; I have laid all the foundations and I will be hitting the ground running. There were few things that I really wanted to do in Bayelsa because what I have done in Bayelsa was to put down all the dots, unfortunately I was not given the opportunity to connect those dots. We have done a lot of things; I have completed all the old uncompleted projects, I have completed all the internal roads, I then, wanted to do the legacy things: things that people would have remembered me for, but I was not given that opportunity. If I have the opportunity of going back again now, those are the things I will do. I will do things that will make the people to remember me forever as past governor of Bayelsa State?

Considering the vigour with which Nigerians voted for your party the APC, how hopeful should Nigerians be of the change mantra as propagated by APC because many people are doubtful of the possibility of this ‘desired change’?

The problem with Nigerians is that you are always doubtful. I don’t blame Nigerians because over the years, there is a breakdown of trust between the people and government. But whether we like it or not there must be trust before a country can grow. As long as there is this distrust between the people and the government, we would not be able to share the same vision and unless the people share the same vision with the government, the country cannot grow. If you go to an average Chinese, the average Chinese shares the same vision with the government. They share for example, the vision of a great China, everybody shares that vision even the man that is sweeping the road shares that vision and that is why he does it with all his mind and all his strength to make sure that he contributes in his own small way to the greatness of China. Unfortunately in Nigeria, the people don’t really believe in the vision of the government. Frankly, we must get to that point.

Having said that, his (Gen Buhari) government of course, definitely stands on the platform of change, and will bring about a lot of change. We have told you the areas we are going to concentrate; there are three main areas: fighting corruption (Transparency in governance), security (making sure that the country is secured) and the third are is employment and opportunities for Nigerians. Once we are able to achieve these three things I believe that Nigeria would have moved to another level, and that is what we expect you (Nigerians) to expect from us. But of course, you must also give us some benefit of the doubt. You can see that we are taking over power with an empty treasury, the economy is in shambles. So we are almost starting on ground zero, in some instances we are starting on minus zero. So if we are going to start on that kind slate, Nigerians must give us a little bit of time not that from day-one you expect us to build all the skyscrapers.

We must really be given time to study the rotes, the actual nature of the rotes so that we can find a way out of the rotes. And that is why Nigerians must build that trust in the government and if they don’t trust somebody like Buhari who by himself personifies transparency and modesty, I don’t know who else they will trust. Nigerians are lucky at this time that we have somebody like Buhari, somebody that we can at least collectively trust. You can say anything about Buhari, but nobody will say that Buhari is corrupt; nobody will say Buhari is not patriotic; nobody is going to say that Buhari doesn’t lead by example. Somebody that is leading by example I believe he is going to make a lot of difference. So, all we need from Nigerians is trust and some benefit of doubt.

Some Nigerians view that the President-elect is a dictator and may not be able to carry his party members along, having worked with him for some time now, how would you describe him?

I find him a very patriotic Nigeria and somebody who means well for Nigeria and is ready to work with anybody that means well for this country. I don’t think, if you have any personal interest and you are disappointed at that personal level; Buhari himself does not look at things that will benefit people on personal level most of the time. He looks at things from the benefit of the general good most of the time and that is what I think makes all the difference. A lot of people don’t understand him because he looks at things from the general good. Sometimes, what is good for everybody may offend some vested interests and those vested interests of course, can start a whole campaign of calumny; you know how this country works.

I think that as far as the general interest of everybody is concerned he (Buhari) is the best person; I don’t want to look at it from a personal point of view and I don’t think anybody should look at it from personal point of view. We’ve all supported a good cause, we’ve supported General Buhari, and we have to allow him to govern at this time and in governing, even I expect him to look at the general good before he look at my own personal good and interest.

Sir, being a right hand-man of the President-elect, given the state of the Nigerian economy as it stands today; if you are to set an agenda for him what would you tell him?

I have already told you the three things that I expect him to concentrate on: corruption issues, let there be some transparency in Nigeria; that is what is going to bring a lot of investors and will translate to a lot of things, it’s going to blocked all those leakages, free up a lot of money to be deploy into development and the country will become more wealthier. Then, he should look at the issue of security, because without peace there can be no development; and last but not the least; he must look at the unemployment issue especially among the youth, and the poverty issue which results from unemployment because without poverty and unemployment, I don’t think there would be Boko Haram, I don’t think there would be militancy. It is only poverty and unemployment that make people vulnerable and make people being able to recruit them for the things that really they shouldn’t be doing. That is why we have militancy, Boko Haram, Kidnapping and all forms of social vices. So these are the three things that I advised should be tackled and I believe should be tackled headlong as soon as he begins his tenure.

You talked about the Niger Delta not being able to receive the kind of development they ought to have under the Goodluck Jonathan’s administration; now the Buhari administration is coming onboard what should the Niger Delta expect from the incoming government of the APC?

Of course the Buhari presidency is going to really tackle the Niger Delta issue in a more sustainable way because what happened in the Jonathan’s era from what I saw was that he (Jonathan) threw money at the problem. So they created a few islands of wealth in the Niger Delta, a very few people were picked and empowered and they became very rich. Some of them bought private jets as a result but there was no trickle down; even some of these militants’ leaders that were given money to pay their subordinates did not pay the money to their subordinates and it gave birth to a lot of discontents among them (the militants) that was why the militancy never really quiet ended. You must look at the problem more holistically, and solve it in a way that it will be thoroughly resolved not just to look at it and be throwing money at the problem. When there is a problem you throw money there and quench the fire; and then there is another fire as a result because these group have seen that those people got some money, then you throw another money there again (he laughed). That is not the way to solve problem like the Niger Delta, you must look at the problem holistically and solve it in a way that is good for everybody (and that is what I mean by general good) and that is what I believe that the Buhari’s presidency will doing, not to look at personal issues and empowering some few individual as well.

‘Folakemi Fatogbe’s first published book, Inspiring a Generation, was unveiled yesterday at The Wheat Baker, Ikoyi, Lagos. Speaking in an interview ahead of the presentation, the Director, Risk Management at the Central Bank of Nigeria explains why she wrote the book and the takeaways from it. Excerpts:

What is ‘Inspiring a Generation’ about?

It’s a motivational book; it’s woven around the election campaigns of President Barack Obama. All of us will surely recall his historic electoral victory in 2008; it wasn’t anything that anybody expected and whether we are we going to see a black man do that again in our own lifetime is extremely debatable. So, I in particular and many of those around me found it very inspiring; it motivated us. Following his journey, one could see that there were many lessons one could take and imbibe into our own lives. The fact that this man came from ‘nowhere’ and was able to beat the establishment; beat the Clintons and beat the opposition in power to become the most influential man in the world; the most powerful man in the world.

Why did you choose Obama as the anchor, why not look at a personality closer home to Nigeria, Africa?

Obama is an international brand; Obama has achieved something that nobody else has accomplished, not even in Nigeria. There may be some Nigerians in England who are going to become prime minister. He was first generation black man in America and he became the president of that country. Tell me a Nigerian who has achieved a similar feat and I will write about it. Obama not only broke the barriers of colour; he broke the barriers of money, of class and experience. That’s why when you go into the book; it talks about funding your dream. He went a totally unique way to fund his dream. He made an unprecedented amount of money and he did it in a totally unique way.

You are not actually inspiring a generation, you are inspiring generations

It is generations, of course. I think the primary premise is a quote from Confucius which is actually in the beginning of the book. “To put the world right in order, you must first put the nation in order. To put the nation in order, you must first put the family in order. To put the family in order, we must first cultivate our personal life.”

Essentially, it’s saying to make the life that we want to live, to have the country that we want to have, to have the family that we want to have, we must first cultivate and improve ourselves. So, it’s a motivational book and also a self improvement book. The feedback I have got from people so far is that it’s a book that needs to be sent out there to corporate bodies, to universities, schools, entrepreneurial development centres, it has something for everyone.

There are many inspirational books in the market, why should people go for yours?

It has a number of unique selling points. I think one of the primary ones is the fact that it is woven around an icon of our time; a man many people can identify with. He’s still in office. It’s not something that’s so abstract, people can recollect that victory. Many can remember what they were doing at the time of his election and his re-election. That’s one unique selling point.

Another unique selling point is the fact that it has quotations mapped into different sections so someone that just wants a library for quotations; they can get it from there. It also has lessons from Obama. That is, it draws out elements from the man’s campaign, his life and personal attributes that could be beneficial to people. It has a section that has about 60 lessons and at the end of each lesson, it says what you and I need to do; that brings very practical advice on how we can imbibe some of the strengths of Obama into our own lives.

Fourthly, it also has elements from my personal life because I have also walked the walk. When I was writing that book, my life was changing in a way that I had not expected; I had certain challenges so I needed inspiration and I got them from the book as well.

Who are the main targets this book is focussing on?

If I were to give you a broad based answer, the first thing would be to say anybody that has a job; anybody out there who wants to achieve; anybody out there in need of inspiration but it’s not everybody that admits that they are in need inspiration. Some groups are more amenable to the topic of inspiration. So, I will say our whole youth population but not only the youth in Nigeria.

It also encourages people to take alternative paths, not necessarily wait for government employment; think of what you have; the gift that God has given you and try and use them to make a difference to your generation. The target market is everybody really but specifically the youths in Nigeria. In terms of geographical market, where do I think will be the key markets? I will say Nigeria is number one, United States is number two. The UK, Ghana, Kenya and Rwanda.

Why did you write a motivational book when you are in the CBN, why not a book on finance?

I love seeing the shock on people’s faces when I say I have written a book. They say “it’s on risk management right?” Their faces sort of look uninterested but when I say no, that grabs their attention. Then when I tell them they say “oh really, you can write!” So, why did I write on this?

First and foremost, I did it before I came to Central Bank. I started writing the book at the end of 2008. I joined CBN in October 2009, prior to that I worked extensively in the UK, in a number of banks including the Bank of England. Though I was doing banking in the UK, I was also doing other things; I was doing property development. I didn’t write but at that particular point in time, I had a particular challenge with one of my children so I had to stop working and I said this is not going to defeat me, I need to focus my brain on something. I took on two major things – I took on a major property to do and I also decided to write because that’s what I could do at that time when I had a child that was ill, that I had to be the primary carer for.

When did you finish the book?

Before I came to Nigeria in 2009, I had finished the first draft but then I was called to Nigeria and we came to sort out the banking crisis. I was Special Adviser to the CBN Governor [Sanusi Lamido Sanusi] and eventually became Director of Risk Management. We were focussing on banking reform and as you know, that was a very hectic time so there was just no time. When he [Obama] was re-elected in 2012 was when I wrote the last bit of it and I have been editing. It took me just six months to write 90 per cent of the book but the other 10 per cent took me six years.

Are you thinking of writing more and in other genres?

I have not really thought about writing more but the report I am getting from people that know me better than myself is that I have more books inside me. I am not literary minded but another book is not impossible. But you know just like Obama, nothing is impossible.

Source: Tribune

In this interview with Musikilu Mojeed and Ibanga Isine of a PREMIUM TIMES, Pius Adesanmi, a professor of English and African Studies at Carleton University, Canada, speaks about his writings, his activism, the way Nigeria is governed as well as his future political plans.

What is your impression of Nigerians and the challenges their country is facing at this time?

I love Nigeria and Nigerians so much because we are a bundle of contradiction. You see so much… I don’t want to call it poverty but existential challenges in every layer of society. In spite of this, everybody is still happy. People are still bubbling everywhere and I love Nigeria for that.

You are supposed to be in Canada. Why are you in Nigeria at this time?

There are a couple of reasons. Some are immediate and some are remote. The immediate is that I have some lecture events to attend. One was the NBA International Literary Colloquium which held recently in Mina. I was the keynote speaker. I also attended the 60thbirthday of Pastor Tunde Bakare of the Later Rain Assembly. It was a weeklong activity which culminated in a public lecture and a book launch in Lagos. I was invited to present the 60th Birthday Public Lecture. I had two lectures and an opportunity to come back home. It’s always good to come back home and enjoy the communion of kindred spirit.

Are you not going to stop by in your hometown in Kogi to take some palm wine because in one of your writings, you talked about how you salivate for the early-morning palm wine?

That was in a lecture I delivered two years ago titled, “Face me I book you.” I was reminiscing about that part of life in the village while growing up. My father had a palm wine tapper who would come at 5a.m. every morning. When my dad passed on about five years ago, I inherited his palm wine tapper. Only that this time around, he calls me with his blackberry phone from the top of the palm tree which shows that things have changed a lot. Fortunately, during this visit, I am not able to go all the way to Kogi which needs more surveillance visits from me. By and large, Kogi is not a state that is governed to my satisfaction and if I am complaining about any other state in my own attempt to be transcendentally federalist in my engagement of public institutions in Nigeria, I think there comes a time I should situate it a lot more in Kogi State.

What do you mean by saying Kogi is not well-governed to your satisfaction?

Looking at all the indices of underdevelopment and backwardness in this country, I think you could go back to Kogi again and again to cite examples – whether it is Millennium Development Goals, infrastructure or anything. There is little or no governance going on there as far as I am concerned and people like us who come from there need to pay attention to that. We need to let the authorities know that while we are concerned with the broader issues about Nigeria that Kogi State is also in our focus and that we have not forgotten that we have to also look closely at what is happening back at home in Kogi.

How are you copping living in Canada given your likeness of palm wine, the wine tapper and other delicacies from home?

You really don’t want me to get away with this palmwine business. But I think you are using palmwine as a metaphor for much deeper issues around dislocation, exile, displacement, nostalgia and home. You have been there and you know it’s always a struggle. You make do with what you have. On the surface, there is always a bottle of palmwine which is not the real thing but at least has the fragrance of the real thing. You make do with that. I like using one expression that as much as possible, try to photocopy Nigeria. Try to photocopy the culture and photocopy what makes Nigeria tick and reproduce it over there but always bear it in mind that photocopies and reproductions are not the real thing. So in the Diaspora, you must essentially make it a duty to always come back once in a while. I will give you an example since we are in the spheres of alcoholic metaphors. In the first half of last years, you know I recently attended a fellowship in Ghana and being based in Ghana for one year afforded me multiple opportunities to come home to Nigeria. I came once a month. At that time, everybody was almost into Alomo Bitters.

So I got into Alomo Bitters and the sub-cultural world of signification. Every alcoholic drink has a culture and subcultures surrounding it including modes of socializing, discuss engagement, banters and all that. But when I came back after a break of just three months, everybody is talking about Origin. Having gone for only three months only and hey, if you are talking Alomo Bitters, Nigerians have moved ahead. It is now Origin, Origin, Origin. I put that up for my Facebook followers and used that as a metaphor for much broader, much deeper and much significant things that you miss out when you stay away for too long. Somebody was in this country in July and came into the discourse of Alomo Bitters just to come back three months later to meet the discourse of Origin all over the place.

You were talking about nostalgia, displacement, exile and the associated problems and excitement about home. It does appear and it shows in almost all your writings that you miss home, you love Nigeria and Africa. Why can’t you come back home and invest your potentials in the country and continent?

Pius Adesanmi and Okey Ndibe. Pius serving himself palm wine while Okey enjoys pounded yam.

Well, I think there are multiple ways to do that. First, at the political level I am not very sympathetic to the idea because you know a lot of my detractors will either try to blackmail me or try to coble me into some kind of emotional and psychological position from which some of my ideas and positions and engagements on national issues could be delegitimised. Like saying, if you love Nigeria so much, why not come back, or you are not even in a position to speak about some of these things because you are not based here. So at that political level, I am not sympathetic to their points of view and I don’t think that location ordinarily delegitimises ones mode of engagement with Nigerian especially in modes of intervention on issues of advancement. I am not sympathetic to that sort of argument. At another level, I like to think of it in terms of my fundamental attachment to Nigeria and my unimpeachable devotion to her development at the intellectual level especially – that is my constituency. In this case, my location is not mutually exclusive as an errant global cosmopolitan intellectual. I also take that identity quite seriously and this idea of being at home in the world so that the business of Nigeria and I hope you are not going to box me into a position that will make me say something that will make you remember the Yar’Adua days. I am going to say that the business of Nigeria should not necessarily be subjected to the strictures of location. You should not necessarily be here to make the intellectual business of Nigeria relevant and useful. In fact, I always tell people that I am much more useful to this country in terms of my contribution to her intellectual development than I could ever hope to if I was based here. Out there, I have more resources at my disposal to help individuals in universities and schools back home in Kogi State. I have more opportunities to throw out to colleagues over here in terms of development and grants. There are windows I am privileged to open up to my fellow Nigerians that I may not essentially have if I were here. Most of these factors make it possible for me to be there and still maintain a certain level of relevance.

You have a punishing schedule and at one point you collapsed in Frankfurt in July, maybe out of exhaustion. Why are you highly sought after?

I am almost tempted to tell you to ask those who invite me give you the reason. I don’t know. Maybe there is something they think I have and they like. Maybe there are some kinds of contributions they think I can make, not just to Nigeria because the engagements I have are mostly about issues of Africanist knowledge production and capacity building. I get invited a lot and I crisscross the continent giving lectures on the politics of generating knowledge in Africa, about Africa in the 21st century.

Does it have something to do with the fact that you are bilingual?

I think that helps a lot. People used to tell me back in the day, I don’t know whether that is true anymore because now I do a lot things in English Language. Back in the day, people used to tell me that if I stand behind a curtain speaking French, you would find it really hard to say that I wasn’t a Frenchman. I speak the Peruvian French. Yes, being bilingual means that I have one leg in Anglophone Africa and one leg in Francophone Africa and these are traditions, cultures and political issues are thrown up.

Are you also familiar with the culture of these places too?

Oh yes. My good friend and poet, Ogaga Ifowodo, who is back in the country and contesting for the Federal House of Representatives, used to grumble that I was becoming too “Frenchified” for his liking. So if you go into French studies the way I did, you know all my degrees are in French and I spent time in France. Even before going to school to study French, I was already exposed to it because of the peculiar circumstances of my upbringing back in Kogi State. I was partly raised by a French Reverend Father. If you take all that into consideration, you will see the rooted “Frenchness” I got into in this Anglophone giant (Nigeria). I have a strong French/Francophone background and didn’t only study French to acquire the language. When France colonized a part of Africa, they came with a philosophy of assimilation, “frenchification,” which means that whatever is your base culture isn’t work keeping. They brushed away everything and they pour frenchness into you. Part of that philosophy was built into the training of French graduates so they acquired the French culture and civilization along with the language.

You are a cultural icon and a respected writer but you are also a social critic which is where most of your writings are focused. You have criticized the Nigerian establishment extensively and tend not to see anything good in the country and those in power. What do you really want?

There are two things that are being conflicted here. When the spoilers and wasters of our potentials and boundless opportunities want to delegitimise my position, they will say I don’t see anything good about and in Nigeria instead of saying that I don’t see anything good about them or the way they are ruling. And that is part of why I am dissatisfied, that is why we are struggling because you have these guys who in order to continue to rule this country the way they are ruling and when I say ruling, I am using it interchangeably with ruining. There is a distinction between ruling and leading. That’s why I call them rulers and not leaders. Therefore, if I say they are rulers, I means they are ruining the country because they are not leading the country. One of the levels of resistance one must bring up against them is the equation of their own personality and overinflated ego with Nigeria so that if you criticise them, you are criticising Nigeria. If you say that X is not a good leader, then they unleash social media attack dogs on you. There is a constant case of sly misrepresentation and I do not agree that I do not see anything good in Nigeria. That is what our detractors think. My problem is that there so many things that are fundamentally annoying about this country which cause restiveness and dissatisfaction. There is very little things about the way the state, our mechanisms, our institutions function in ways that fundamentally alienate and dehumanise the citizens. I can go into specifics.

On my way to Minna, I took pictures of a Federal Government road construction in progress – a 21st century road construction in progress in this country. On the surface, you could see this fine layer of bitumen or tar in a stretch of macadam which is really nice to behold. But when you look closely, you find out that the layer is very thin. With all the machines and heavy-duty equipment, the contractor has just poured the thin layer of bitumen on sand in the 21st century. You want me to tell you the layers of corruption that went into the making of that road which is going to be washed off during the next rainy season so that it will be rewarded to our friends so that we take part of our cut. That’s just one example.

Are you referring to corruption in the country?

It’s everything.

Are you saying that nothing right is happening in the country?

That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that a lot is being done wrongly which overwhelms whatever it is they are doing right and in the 21st century; we have absolutely no basis being overwhelmed by mediocrity, by substandard and evil. By the way, I perfectly understand and what I am talking about is not just limited to those who are ruling this country. There is an overwhelming ethos and general subscription to mediocrity as a standard and it has generally been accepted in every facet of our lives and it applies to the citizenry. In fact, I am happy that you are making me talk about our leaders now. For over a year now, I have been writing about the psychology of followers which is fundamentally wrong and we have to work on it. When you come into Nigeria, one thing which amazes me is the proliferation of “Nollywood” homes – lovely residential buildings. People are building very lovely homes all over the country and you could say to some extent that there is some level of middleclass empowerment that has gone into that process when you see all these duplexes, bungalows and very nice things. You could call that development – right? Yea, that is an index of socio-economic advancement. But when you go inside those houses, something as simple as finishing is wrong in a N10 million home. You may be tempted to ask what government has got to do with toilets not flushing properly in homes that also have bad plastering and doors that are not properly fixed in a N10 million home. Years of accumulation of mediocrity, years of the accumulation of the substandard even when there are regulations. That is what Nigeria paid for. It is not that there are no rules and edicts in the books. There are always there so that by the time you are building those homes in Lekki, in Banana Island, in Maitama, in Asokoro or these other areas, you see the façade of excellence outside but when you go inside, you are forced to ask, ‘what’s going on here?’. Why are we in this permanent state of rebellion against excellence? That’s the fundamental question we must answer.

You have criticised successive governments in the country and now we want you to look back and tell us which the worst government in Nigeria is?

I have come to a situation where I think that that question is no longer legitimate in the case of Nigeria – that is the transcendental comparison of the badness of successive government. Here is why I say so. Every time we face one government in its present, you thought it was the worst. Then the next government will come in and you say wait a minute, looks like we had it better in the previous administration. We thought there couldn’t be a worst government than Obasanjo’s administration. Then Yar’Adua came along and acquired the dubious distinction of being Mr. Snail who didn’t do anything but allowed the country to be dysfunctional. So we thought that quite bad and his 7-Point Agenda didn’t seem to go anywhere. I thought that was quite bad and screamed and screamed. His illness was capitalised upon by the so-called cabal and all those things that went on. Now this guy (President Jonathan) tags along. When you look back at Obasanjo and Yar’Adua, you find out that whatever was wrong with them now seems like child’s play. I have been home multiple times since President Jonathan came to power and I just don’t know or understand what he is up to. The weight of corruption has gotten so bad. In fact we are not even in position to complain about corruption because we now have bigger problems with him which makes corruption look like Boy Scout play in the field. We now live with layers of impunity that would make Sani Abacha ashamed of himself. But under Abacha, one would have the excuse that we were under a military rule. We have now democratized impunity. Under the military, there is the monopolization of impunity by the soldiers but what is going on under President Jonathan, am sorry to say is democratization of impunity at every level. Every Nigerian now exercises impunity in their little fiefdoms. I was on the road recently and somebody brought an MLS Mercedes Benz jeep and parked it facing the wrong side of the road. He just packed the car wrongly and left to attend to his own business. That Mercedes jeep suggests a number of things about the owner, assuming it was driven by the owner and not his or her driver. Ownership of that kind of car in this society suggests at least a minimum level of education, a minimum level of taste, a minimum level of culture and means to have bought it in the first place. Why did this person park in the middle of the road facing the wrong side of the traffic and goes away. That is impunity. Market women have impunity, taxi drivers have impunity, and everybody has impunity.

Reuben Abati was more critical of government than you are but today, he is on the other side. When people criticise government, it is difficult to know what they want. If you are given a job in government or a contract, would you still speak the way you are speaking now?

That question always assumes just like when I was reading the defence of my friend during the latest attempt by the Jonathan government to smear him. It is wrong to think that one is screaming because you want to draw attention to yourself or because you are waiting for your turn. I don’t know what motivated Reuben Abati to do what he did. But I am going to take a step at it and I hope it will be an indirect way of answering your question.

Reuben badly, tragically, and sadly underestimated the institution he had become. He misread the icon he had become. He misjudged the fact that there is no service he could ever offer to Nigeria that would be superior to what he was doing in the past. Reuben is a first-class brain. That brain, that intellect, that power. May all of that not fail us at the most critical moment of our lives. That is what I see when I always think of Reuben Abati. I hope that a time will not come when I am going to underestimate my own self because, considering what I have been doing, the activism, the writing, effort, the energy, are all thankless jobs that sway me from the legitimate job that puts food on my table. I am only extremely privileged to have the kind of employer which identifies with what I do. They like my service to the community, service to humanity and that’s why I haven’t run into problems. I strongly hope that a time will not arise when I will make two mistakes implicit in your question by underestimating the value of what I currently do, which I consider to be a contribution to my fatherland.

Secondly, and this is the most important part, people mistake service in government as the only way to serve Nigeria. They tell me, Prof, you are making noise now because you have not been called upon to serve or to come and eat and I asked them, who told you I have not been called upon to serve and how can that be possible in today’s Nigeria that I will be doing the sort of thing am doing and at the level at which am doing them, the audiences I have not only in Nigeria and I will not be approached? That is not possible. It is not thinkable because I know places I have messed up these guys very badly. It is not every time you go public that you go and beat your chest in terms of the impact that you have. Knowing that you will be asking for specifics; let me tell you something. I am in the capital of a major Western power which increasingly is becoming a very attractive destination for Nigerian government officials. They have messed up and everybody knows them in London and they are not taken seriously officially. They have also messed up very badly in the United States of America and nobody takes them seriously in the official US. They are seen as clowns. Now they come to Canada with all kinds of intergovernmental, multilateral, bilateral this and that. There are always delegations coming. I am also well-known to the Canadian authorities. Do you how many times the Canadian will phone me and ask questions about visiting Nigerian delegations? They will tell me they are hosting a delegation of Nigeria and ask what my take is. I always tell people who have the kind of opportunity I have; like when a foreign government is seeking your opinion not about your country and about certain people who are coming and why they are coming, that is another opportunity to serve Nigeria.

Sometimes I look at the names and say these people are wonderful Nigerians; fantastic representatives of the Nigerian people and the interest of our country. Most times when I see the names and why they are coming, I tell the Canadians the people are not serious. For example, there was a time some of these clowns in the Senate came. I think they were doing constitutional review and it has been going on forever. So I got an email from the Canadians saying they were going to host a delegation of Nigerian senators. They said the Nigerian lawmakers were coming to study the Canadian Federalism. They told me that an entire Senate Committee was coming to study federalism in Canada in preparation for the process of restructuring Nigeria and ask whether I would like to attend their presentation. I thought within myself how Nigerian senators would come to understudy Canadian federalism. Of course I saw the name of Smart Adeyemi, the senator representing me, on the list and I laughed. I asked the Canadians who were going to host them what they know about Nigeria that these jokers should come here to study what Nigeria has been practicing right from the 60s. We had true federalism when we had the regions then and that is what the Canadian government is practicing. Ottawa has very little say in the affairs and economy of each of the province. They own what they produce. Ottawa is in charge foreign affairs, military and a few other sectors. I insisted that they didn’t need to come there and should be made to stay back home to find out how true federalism was implemented in Nigeria in the 60s. And those were some of the things I have the power to do out there.

You keep on complaining about mediocrity while people like you keep distancing yourself from government. Are you saying that if the Jonathan administration invites you to come and serve you will decline?

I find a little bit of blackmail in that question when people ask. If I reject an offer from the Jonathan government, it means I don’t want to serve under the administration and that should not be equated with not wanting to serve Nigeria.

But why won’t you want to serve under Jonathan government?

Why will I want to serve under a government that is dysfunctional in everything? I would be a hypocrite. It would take a change in the DNA of the Jonathan government to make me agree to associate myself with that government.

If Nigeria is handed over to you and you are asked to change two things about the country. What would those things be?

It is leadership by personal example. I have been speaking about it. It has disappeared completely from this country but it makes it so easy for good followership. A followership is as corrupt as the Nigerian followership has become and which is the biggest problem this country has. A country can survive corrupt rulers but no country can survive a corrupt followership where everybody in their own little corners have ethos of cutting corners in everything. What legitimises cutting of corners for the followership is because those who are in charge of things are doing it. All it takes is one day in the life of a president where a clear message would be sent through symbolic and evident-based action that impunity is no longer tolerated, it will reverberate throughout the country. It would create a miracle. The followers cannot do anything outside the personal example of their leaders. It will take only one day for a leader to make his life an example to the followers for things to change. It will take the renunciation of the present government ethos which has corrupted everybody. There is no level in our lives that has not been corrupted. Even kids now have the mentality of getting things quick by cutting corners and every time people cut corners, they cheating the country. it is important to point out that the act is not as important as the mentality that says such action is right and the legitimacy comes from people in government.

From your informal conversations, you seem to like Ghana a lot. Why it this so?

That’s where the example comes in. Don’t forget that Ghana also has problems of corruption and a very sharp North and South divide and strong tribal flashpoints. Ghana has all that but they have that layer which makes you as a Nigerian very uncomfortable. To some extent, they have power, water and other basic things to some extent. And you begin to wonder why we couldn’t do better as Nigerians. For example, we were celebrating the 50th Anniversary of African Studies at the University of Ghana, Legon. It was a long week event with international conferences and dignitaries coming from every part of the world. It was Kwama Nkruma’s pet project and they were celebrating it as a national event. The event was rounded off with a banquet and the President of Ghana, John Mahama was going to chair it. The event was going to start at 9pm and I asked a Ghanaian colleague to pick my Nigerian friend and I on the way. When the guy picked us we got there at about 9.10pm and we found people milling around, chatting and about two people were already seated on the high table including the chairman of the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa, UNECA. I was looking at my time and it was almost 9.20pm and I turned and told my Ghanaian colleague that I thought their country was different and concluded that their president also comes to events late. He looked at me and said Prof what are you talking about? I said is it not President Mahama we are expecting? He pointed to the high table and said, that’s him sitting there. Of course I had seen the picture of the president a thousand times and not that I didn’t know him. Mr. Mahama was there on the high table and chatting just like any other person in the hall. I didn’t recognise him because of the ease of our access to the hall. I found out that the president was already seated before we arrived and had been sitting there all the time we were moving around and even passing in front of him.

Are you saying there were no security operatives near the president?

My brother there was no sign that a president was in the room and the two of us who were Nigerians were shocked. The Ghanaians didn’t understand why we reacted that way. I tried to tell my Ghanaian friend that if Nigeria’s First Lady, Patience Jonathan was coming to the campus, about 12 kilometers to the venue could have been sealed a day earlier. But here was a president sitting inside and we walked in without being checked by any security operative. It was shortly after that the master of ceremony announced that the programme was about to begin. But the president was just bouncing back and forth and mingling with people showing the demystification of power. If I heard siren in Ghana in a year, it was an ambulance or the police. So look at that? If power is seen as ordinary and that is taken as a philosophy from which a leader operates, he will understand the importance of showing example to his followers.

Your last book was “You Are Not a Country Africa.” When are we expecting another work?

I have three books in the works now. Two of them will come out soon and one of them is for my primary constituency, that’s the academia and the second is a sequel to “You Are Not a Country Africa,’ which involves the collection of my satires on Nigeria. I don’t know who will publish that. I heard from the grapevines that PREMIUM TIMES in collaboration with Richard Ali’s outfit will be publishing that book.

You seem to be doing a lot of your writings these days on Facebook and you seem to be reflective. Why do you do that?

I have realised the power of social media and that’s part of my beat as a scholar of culture. Fundamentally, I do literary and cultural studies and that is my professional designation. We try to study what we call the location of culture, the demography that I study to impact on are there. I have to locate my knowledge generation there and so I take what I do on the social media very seriously because my goal is to educate beyond the classroom.

You write on a daily basis on a lot of issues spanning from Africa, to the world and so on. How do you find time to do all that?

I find time out of no time and that it why I keep collapsing.

Are you hoping to collect some of these post on the social media into a book or something?

A lot of people have suggested that I need to do a selection of some of my best post for publication. If you look at Eduardo Galliano’s recent books, I have forgotten the title. Galliano is that guy who was so famous to the intellectual world but became known to the global public. Hugo Chavez held up one of his books at the UN while abusing George Bush. His latest book is a 400-page snippets that he had been taking from Facebook. I am inspired by that work by Galliano and I think I am going to look at that after we’ve finished the PREMIUM TIMES book.

Your friend Ogaga Ifowodo came back and is trying to raise funds to contest for a House of Representatives seat. When are you going to take that kind of step?

You know there are a lot of Facebook groups calling on me to come and run for Senate. That’s the question I cannot exclude but when you asked me about the Jonathan government, I excluded it. An elective position is a totally different ball game. I don’t think I have what it takes now to afford it and that is in terms of the nitty-gritty of the process. No matter how good you are, no matter how good your vision is and all that you still have to do things the Nigerian way. So am I able to do some of these things like the question of godfathers, factions and all that. Of course in my own case it would be any other party but the PDP. But can I do that now? It’s not that I don’t believe in it but I know that Ogaga could not have come without first having a very wide consultation with his people. He is my brother and we have been talking extensively. In fact I am not ashamed to say that I started preparing him because I believe in him. I believe in what he is doing. If somebody is trying to go in, in a way that is not totally like that of Reuben Abati to capture legal spaces, then we have to encourage such people. But I have had very pragmatic discussion with him to understand that there would be compromises. When you know that is a fact, then you have to prepare your mind for it but don’t lose the core of what you are about. In some cases, you will have to be maneuvering and there may be a particular godfather to make happy otherwise you will not get the nomination.

When is yours likely to happen?

You have boxed me to a position. Let’s look at 2019 and see what will happen.

What position are you considering? Governorship?

I can never be the governor of Kogi State.

Why?

Thank you for asking me that question. If we don’t restructure Nigeria, we will keep moving from discontent to discontent. I am an Iyagba or Okun man. We belong to the Yoruba race. When we were part of Kwara State, we were a part of the Yoruba majority in the state. So they yanked the Okun out of Kwara State and threw them into a state where they are sub-minority of sub-minority. Mathematically, for an Okun man to become governor of Kogi State, you will have to secure the magnanimity of the Igala majority and the cooperation of the Ebira. There are so many factors to overcome. So it is mathematically impossible until the Igalas get tired because they have the number. But who gets tired of governance in Nigeria.

So in that circumstance, you will be thinking of the Senate?

You really want me to make a commitment? It is a theoretical possibility and that’s my academic way of giving you a no answer.